Hollowing bamboo has been around for some time (eg. Winston,Powell). However,there are now numerous rod builders offering a hollow or semi-hollow rod. Some
even offer a rod with no metal ferrules eg. Chris Bogart, Wayne Maca and Marcello Calviello. Are there others? On the face of it a significant reduction in
weight sounds great particularly for those of us with arthritis etc which might limit our use of heavier rods.Dave Collyer goes further and says for him the
biggest advantage is "tracking" and "recovery" with "weight reduction as the icing on the cake". Are we then seeing a massive
change both in the way rods are built and the market for hollow built rods? Would those members with an arsenal of old rods buy a hollow built rod from the
next generation of rod makers? If not, is it because no further rod is needed, because no great advantage is seen by this method or for some other reason? As
yet I have no hollow built rod but have two in the pipeline, one from Chris Bogart and the other from Chris Carlin. Can any member give me an opinion of the
first hollow built rod acquired by him as compared to solid ones previously used? I hope there is enough here for some discussion.Thanks.
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Hollowing-the way of the future??
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 caddwas |
Hollowing-the way of the future?? |
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Posts: 5 09/04/2008 05:08 |
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tiptop |
#1 | |||
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Posts: 325 09/04/2008 07:26 |
I've not cast any Carlins or Bogarts, but I own several hollow rods by other makers and have fished them and test cast them directly along side of solid
rods of the same lengths. Your question is a tough one to answer for a variety of reasons. Every builder has different technique in hollowing and even the rods
of one builder can vary with different internal tapers, wall thickness, etc.. There usually is some noticeable weight savings -- 8' and 8.5' rods can
feel similar to a rod 6" shorter. However, most of the weight savings is in the butt where it is least noticeable and differences between hollow and solid
are pretty subtle. I don't know about tracking, but I have noticed a difference in recovery in some hollow rods but not all. I have a Reams 8'3"
that demonstrates this but his tempering technique may contribute as much as his hollowing. The most significant positive effect I've seen due to hollowing
is in shorter (7') hollow fluted quads. I own one and have cast another by a different maker and both can generate superior line speed while loading very
well up close. I don't know if these two are the exception though -- a sample of 2 isn't many. I also don't know if longer hollow quads show these
same characteristics as shorter ones since I've never had the opportunity to cast one.
In general, just like solid rods, each is different and I'd highly recommend casting the specific rod you're considering before buying. And, IMO, in hex rods, I think hollowing is most useful in 8.5' or longer rods. The benefit in 8' hex is marginal and with less than 8' hex I probably wouldn't bother.
Last Edited By: tiptop 09/04/2008 07:58.
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creakycane |
#2 | |||
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Posts: 1811 09/04/2008 08:44 |
I'd say the biggest advantage is recovery in hollowed rods. More like a good graphite, largely because much of the mass near the axis of the rod whose KE
needs to be damped is removed.
Tracking? I'm not sure it matters much Weight savings? Small effect in all but larger rods. |
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fishbum |
#3 | |||
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Posts: 187 09/04/2008 08:50 |
All bamboo rods are hollow. Most makers choose not to remove the excess material from the center of the rod.
I'll explain. Bamboo is very dense on the outside and the density decreases as you move to the center of a rod section. Stress also decreases as you move towards the center of a rod section. The center of the rod for the most part just goes along for the ride. It contributes very little except weight. Get rid of the excess weight and the rod will respond quicker. It won't be any stiffer for a given cross section but the response will be quicker because the power fibers on the outside of the rod have less weight to move around. To gain maximum benifit from hollowing the tip of the rod needs to be hollow as well as the butt. With only the butt hollowed the rod will have a tip heavy feel. Simple physics. For me, I am hollowing almost every rod I make. Even the little itty bitty ones. Lately though I have only been making bigger steelhead and salmon rods. These big rods really shine when hollowed. fishbum |
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Gnome |
#4 | |||
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Posts: 1691 09/04/2008 09:07 King of the Gnomes |
hollow building goes back to the 1860-70 time frame. Winston and Powell get the credit because of their patents but it was done many decades before that by
named makers such as Leonard and Murphy etc. Their very early rods are hollowbuilt in the butt and mids due to the material constraints imposed by the use of
Calcutta.
I have a 12' Calcutta cane anonymously made with Chubb components that is hollow built clear into the tips. One is broken at the ferrule and shows a true hollowbuilt rod from the 1880-1890 period. ANd it is a very light rod for its length and components. Jeff 
P.S. Creaky cane has nailed it head on!!! And the most forward thinking of the builders of today is Wayne M. in my book, Keep after it Bro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last Edited By: Gnome 09/04/2008 09:13.
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paxlev |
#5 | |||
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Posts: 717 09/04/2008 09:28 |
Maybe its my physical perception, but I believe, even in a shorter rods (7'6"), the weight savings on a hollow built rod will prove itself over a days
worth of fishing. That said, some of my non-hollow built rods, in longer and heavier lengths, tend, for whatever reason, to balance better, with reel on, in
hand, making their casting over the course of a day a lot less tiring. Good examples of this are my Dickersons and the recently acquired Gnomish works
7'9" fully mortised rod that just seems very light in hand principally, I believe, from the way the rod, with reel on, balances. Wave of the future or
not, if you don't have a few hollow built rods, you are missing a very nice part of the rod craft. The makers' list should include Per Brandin, Mario
Wojnicki, Jim Reams and Jim Hidy, and I understand that Don Schroeder is working on his first hollow builts. ric
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tiptop |
#6 | |||
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Posts: 326 09/04/2008 11:12 |
One more thing comes to mind. I think the effects of hollowing are more easily felt on a 2 piece rod and preferably with smallish ferrules. Maybe the extra
weight of an extra ferrule and the unhollowed bamboo adjacent to that ferrule tend to offset the weight loss due to hollowing.
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thegubster |
#7 | |||
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Posts: 1347 09/04/2008 12:23 |
What Jeff and Ric said!
I have a couple of 8ft 2pc 4wt hollowbuilts, a Lew Parks and a Dave Norling. Daves rod was built around an altered Powell "B" taper, from a 5 line to a 4wt line which I asked for. The modification worked splendidly per the numbers suggested (thanks Jay) and is certainly a rod I can fish all day long w/o tiring more than expected. It's a treat and the hollowing makes it all the more enjoyable! That rod meets my medium-fast, smooth action preferences completely and it'll never leave my family. I really don't need another because she has a 5wt tip to compliment the two 4wt tips (yep, a 3 tipper..) and gets me smiling as we all do with a fav. toy! I have a rod going with Chris Carlin that I'm looking forward to and although the specs haven't been determined just yet, I'm almost certain that I'll talk with Chris about hollowing her out too. Depending on how his opinion goes, it would be my choice to do so. Yep, I could guess it's here to stay! Jeremy. |
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WatercolorMan |
#8 | |||
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Posts: 993 09/04/2008 13:09 |
Wow I have 4 rods that are hollow built. I never Creaky said it, "the biggest advantage is recovery" You can see it happen as you watch the rod tip
and the reduction of vibration in the fly line. I like what I see and feel when using them.
My biggest hollow rod is a Salmon / Steelhead rod by Mike Brooks that one I wanted to be hollow, I need all the help I can get casting a heavy line a long ways all day. Mike put a heavy reel seat on it which make it easier to balance while casting and way less tiring when combined with the right reel. The other rods were not bought because they were hollow, it just turned out that way. I have 2 rods by Lou Parks based on the Dickerson's 7613 and 8012 taper. Great rods to fish, easy on the old body, less impact on a bad elbow and reworked shoulder. The 8012 is a rod that really stands out from the crowd. It must have something to do with it being hollow, combined with the Dickerson tapers, how can you go wrong. I also think Lou has now built enough rods now that his understanding of what makes a great rod shines through. When the fish strike it seems to dampen the set somewhat, it may be just my imagination, but it could also be the tip design. I'll let others more knowledgeable that I figure those things out. What I do know is the more I use them the more I like them. If Hollow building is a  , I've caught it. . . Don't leave AJ off the Hollow Built rod
list.
Alan |
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tiptop |
#9 | |||
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Posts: 327 09/04/2008 13:28 |
"I'd say the biggest advantage is recovery in hollowed rods. More like a good graphite, largely because much of the mass near the axis of the rod whose KE needs to be damped is removed." In theory anyway. In actual performance, IMO, it really depends on how far into the tip the hollowing is done, whether the hollowed tips are really hollow or glue filled, 2 ferrule or 3, wall thickness, and probably other things I don't know about. I own a couple hollow rods that you'd be hard pressed to identify as hollow if you didn't already know -- nice rods but not that much different in performance from solid-built. |
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PkwyAngler |
#10 | |||
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Posts: 191 09/04/2008 13:43 |
Just to play "Devils Advocate"… our love of fishing split bamboo fly rods is strongly related to the inertial mass of bamboo present in the various rod tapers, and in fact that "relaxed casting stroke" resulting from how a bamboo mass behaves & dampens. Hollow building is a good thing, but as one seeks to reach the equivalency of graphite in rod mass & dampening why bother with bamboo…. Just go to the dark side of plastic!
To answer the question "Is hollowing-the way of the future?"… No, it is just a way of approaching gapping performance characteristics of more modern materials. I don't think we want to ever loose "The Bamboo Feel".
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WatercolorMan |
#11 | |||
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Posts: 994 09/04/2008 14:28 |
pkwy said, "as one seeks to reach the equivalency of graphite in rod mass & dampening why bother with bamboo…. "
I don't know about your H.B. rods but none of mine feel anything like a graphite. You can use words to describe technological, understanding of a rods mass and it effects on the casting stroke, and it sounds like you know something about it ? But when some of the worlds best rod builders use a method of building rods which pre dates plastic by over 100 years I'm going to have to go with the rod builders and how it performs on the water in my hand. You may want to go over the builders names that were mentioned here. You can use your latest and greatest sticks If you choose. . . . but this wild idea that we want our cane rods to feel like a graphite stick is not well founded. Alan
Last Edited By: WatercolorMan 09/05/2008 11:32.
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creakycane |
#12 | |||
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Posts: 1812 09/04/2008 15:15 |
If a longish hollow cane 4 weight felt like a Scott G85 circa 1975, that would not be a bad thing.......
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rsagebrush |
Hollow vs solid built | #13 | ||
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Posts: 509 09/04/2008 16:31 |
I have a lot, way to many, solid builts and they are great rods with good balance and would compete with any hollowbuilt.
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mvbrooks |
#14 | |||
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Posts: 1700 09/04/2008 16:35 |
Just my 2 cents, but hollow building is best where it makes sense. On a big salmon rod, it does. And I hollow build them... EXCEPT FOR THE TIPS! The tips are
the weak point and hollow building them has always made me feel "uneasy". At the other extreme, hollow building a Fairy or midge or anything for a 4
wt line or less has never made sense to me. I actually built an ultralight Payne 100, hollow built the whole way, and offered it up for sale here as a part of
my annual scratch and dent sale and had no takers, even though I offered it at half price ... ended up giving it away to a "starving new fly
fisherman". So, it seems that a lot of people on this forum feel the same way. Of course, I am one those guys who always thought twisted blanks were just
a gimmick, too, until I cast one, so I am open to being convinced otherwise.
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PkwyAngler |
#15 | |||
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Posts: 192 09/04/2008 17:04 |
Watercolor,
I am glad my comments proved to be so thought provoking… playing the Devil's Advocate has a way of accomplishing this.
I agree with you that cane rods should not feel like and perform like a graphite rod although some amongst us desire some of these traits in the longer & heavier line weight rods.
Be assured that none of my H.B. rods feel anything like graphite, or I would not own them. And yes, I am familiar with all the builder names that were mention on the thread. Both Per's & A.J.'s rods happen to be two of my favorites to fish when not fishing my solid builts.
Best, Pkwy |
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caddwas |
Hollowing-the way of the future?? | #16 | ||
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Posts: 6 09/05/2008 02:22 |
Reference is made in some of the replies to the concept that in looking at hollowing and lightening the weight of a bamboo rod there was an attempt (or
something of that nature) to move towards graphite. Nothing could be further from the truth. A few years back I was standing on the edge of a lake using a
stiff graphite rod.and thinking I was putting more effort into getting the line out than I had with my beloved (deceased) Shakepeare fibreglass rod. I was no
longer feeling the rod "loading" the way I had with fibreglass. Despite some 38 years of fly fishing I decided to move to bamboo to once again get
the feel of a rod loading and ,indeed, getting some assistance in getting the line out. I have achieved this. However, having chronic neck problems some
lengthy sessions give me massive headaches. Both Chris Bogart and Chris Carlin have been very helpful in selecting components which will reduce the weight of a
hollow built rod further and I am quite excited about the possibilty of getting more fishing time.
I note in passing that I have observed a number of members praising "glass" rods that they have. This suggests to me that they like the "loading" qualities of glass just the way I did. |
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rsagebrush |
Hollowbuilding | #17 | ||
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Posts: 510 09/05/2008 10:29 |
Not all graphite rods are stiff for example the Orvis Trout Bum series is quite limber and Scott G series rods are crisp and certainly a pleasure to fish
all day.
It is just that the things are so damn ugly compared to bamboo! |
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