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Jim Payne - Early Rods

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cwfly	Jim Payne - Early Rods		Lead	[-]
Posts: 618 02/27/2008 18:29	Tags : None Much discussion and opinion is expressed from time-to-time regarding early 20^th century rodmakers. I can't say I know much about those from the West and little enough about those from the East. Frequently, there are enthusiastic statements about Eustis Edwards and Fred Thomas, among others. Hiram Hawes was making rods until his death in 1929. However, I have read little about Jim Payne in his early years. I gather he started in his Dad's shop at the age of 10 in 1904 and Ed Payne passed away 10 years later when Jim was 20 years old. Does anyone have an opinion (I know, we all have opinions) based on some experience with the early Jim Payne rods -say 1915 - 1935 or so. How does their quality, in taper, finish or whatever, rank with the rods of his elders building rods at the same time? Last Edited By: cwfly 02/28/2008 13:56. Edited 1 time.
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Rolf Jacobsen		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1876 02/27/2008 20:30 The COOLER	I hope someone chimes in on this as I'm also very interested. I would be interested to hear what the big kids have to say. Rolf Brook Trout are God's way of reminding us everything is going to be alright.
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cwfly		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 619 02/28/2008 13:58	Rolf, it appears that but you and I have an interest in the subject. I guess I'll go back to the books to see what I can pick up from the pages. Charlie
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Trout120		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 765 02/28/2008 16:58	I'll chime in. Jim's early rods were just as nice as his later one's with a couple of cosmetic differences. His browntoned rods were breathtaking, with his ruby red wraps and black tipping. There's a rod in the American Museum of Fly Fishing like this that was owned by Babe Ruth. I was able to pick up a matching rod a few years back. The varnish is flawless, the only difference being bright hardware, a walnut seat, and a more blunt cigar style grip. Not to mention it's full of intermediates. We all know it's harder to varnish with those on but it's as mirror like as his late rods. I had a Highlander Payne at one time with plum wraps tipped his gold. Bright hardware again with an agate stripping guide. Same grip as above. Tapers were nice, comparable to his late rods, but somewhat slower on some models. I think Jim was way ahead of his time back then. I've seen some late Ed Paynes, especially a little 6ft blond beauty that someone had 30 years ago. It was the most modern looking old rod I've ever seen. Even the action was "brisk". It was simply the market at the time, most folks wanted the long sticks with the slower action. To have someone at Jim's young age take over the shop and make rods like he did is few and far between. T120
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cwfly		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 620 02/28/2008 17:37	T120, Thanks. I gather that you would rank his rods, even at early age, right up there with the best of his older contemporaries. Interesting start at such an early age and pretty much by himself. He was only a couple of years older than Fred Thomas's son Leon but making rods at the same time as Fred, Eustis and Hiram. Charlie
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BluDun55	1920's Jim Payne	#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 41 02/28/2008 19:28	I have an 8'1" 2 piece early JIM Payne with beautiful, down-locking seat, bright nickel silver hardware, Ed Payne "Pot Belly" ferrules and gorgeous browntone color. It too (like Trout 120's) has intermediates and the varnish is the best I've seen. This rod belonged to Roy Steenrod and I purchased it from Marty Keane years ago. The wraps are a purple/burgundy or "plum" color (gold tipping). It does have a blunt tipped cigar grip. You can see two pictures (reel seat and ferrules) of this rod by looking at the Winter 2008 issue of The American Fly Fisher (Figures 2 and 3 in my article on George Halstead). The rod has a medium smooth dry fly casting action. J Last Edited By: BluDun55 02/28/2008 19:31. Edited 2 times.
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cwfly		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 621 02/28/2008 19:54	BluDun55, Thanks for reminding me. I did go back to your wonderful article. It's a lovely rod and I had forgotten (I seem to forget alot, a lot sooner as the years go on) that Halstead joined Jim Payne in 1925. Charlie
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Rolf Jacobsen		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1879 02/28/2008 21:38 The COOLER	BluDun55 wrote: I have an 8'1" 2 piece early JIM Payne with beautiful, down-locking seat, bright nickel silver hardware, Ed Payne "Pot Belly" ferrules and gorgeous browntone color. It too (like Trout 120's) has intermediates and the varnish is the best I've seen. This rod belonged to Roy Steenrod and I purchased it from Marty Keane years ago. The wraps are a purple/burgundy or "plum" color (gold tipping). It does have a blunt tipped cigar grip. You can see two pictures (reel seat and ferrules) of this rod by looking at the Winter 2008 issue of The American Fly Fisher (Figures 2 and 3 in my article on George Halstead). The rod has a medium smooth dry fly casting action. J I'm off to the news stand tomorow. Thanks to all of you. Anyone else? Rolf Brook Trout are God's way of reminding us everything is going to be alright.
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BluDun55	Newsstand will disappoint	#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 42 02/29/2008 13:55	Rolf.... You cannot get The American Fly Fisher journal at a newsstand. You can get a copy for $4.95 by going to the amff.com website or call the Museum at 802-362-3300 and talk to Becky Nawrath (her email is amff3@amff.com) J
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spicyfish	Winter 2008 issue of The American Fly Fisher	#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 28 02/29/2008 17:49	The George Halstead article was fantastic. I learned a lot from it and was amazed at the level of detail you provided about him and his evolution/contributions in the rod building area. Well done!
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BluDun55	Halstead article	#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 43 03/03/2008 19:13	Thanks Spicy! J
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Short Tip		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 853 03/05/2008 22:57 Moderator	Early Payne 210 I once had the pleasure of owning. Note the waisted ferrules and all metal reelseat. A surprisingly light in the hand 6-7 wt.
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Catskill		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 205 05/03/2008 10:49	Once of the lesser known facts is why the color of the rods varied. This had to due more to the type of "gas" or other combustible being used. Even the later rods varied due to restrictions or availability of certain gases over the time period of the Payne rod company. Catskill
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Al Nixon		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 17 05/11/2008 01:24	I hope that I do not regret this. I have to question the notion that the type of gas used can affect the color of flamed bamboo. The gas residue would have to penetrate not only the enamel, but also the waxy layer beneath it before it can somehow color the bamboo. I have not flamed with pentane, but if you were to compare the color of the rods made by the gentleman who did to a 1950s era Payne rod, I'll bet its still not close in a side-by-side comparison. I can appreciate that a maker would stand by a tradition, but I think the gas/color thing is a myth.
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Catskill		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 206 05/11/2008 10:01	Obviously, the color of a rod both natural and flamed will depend upon the bamboo and the other factors. I showed an older Payne 100H from the 50's, which had a distinctive rose color to the flamed tone, to one of our olderest living rodmakers a few years ago. He brought up the fact of a certain gas being restricted from sale and use long ago and how the flamed toned colors changed after that. This gentleman never worked for Leonard or Payne in any way as he had his own rod company from the beginning. This could be a "two delta" change, wherein the banning of a certain gas took place at the same time that a different growth condition or stock of bamboo was used. The bamboo used may have had more effect than how rapid the change in flamed temperature of the bamboo (the temperatue for the color change before it reaches the point of turning to carbon [burning]). I do not think that the implication of the gas penetration was what he had in mind as much as the temperature it created and resultant effect on color change (from how quickly the bamboo reached a certain level without turning to carbon) from the gas used (or mixture of gasses used as he indicated). So, within the Payne history, it is unknown the exact cause. Thanks for questioning in a respectful manner...it keeps the history alive and those of us working on it thinking beyond what we can elicit. Catskill Last Edited By: Catskill 05/11/2008 10:14. Edited 3 times.
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john channer		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 576 05/11/2008 22:34	I'm curious as to the actual color of the bamboo under the varnish. I've heard from several people that Payne used orange oil in his varnish much as we use Penetrol today and that that accounts for the orange tint Payne rods seem to have. I've worked on a couple of Paynes and they might have had colored varnish , I know that's what I did to the second tip I made for one of them and it turned out a pretty good match. The only Payne I've ever seen without varnish was a long time ago, the local flyshop had it in to refinish, the owner wanted it stripped, single foot guides wrapped in nylon finished with epoxy and 3 coats of polyurethane brushed over that. When I got thru crying I begged them to let me do the work for free if I could restore it to original, but they wouldn't go for it, I don't remember what color the bare bamboo was. john
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Al Nixon		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 18 05/16/2008 19:59	I think that it is quite likely that James Payne used tinted varnish; Garrison did for a while ("pumpkin Garrisons", remember?). Payne knew Garrison. And of coarse, Payne knew E. Edwards, who seems to be the first of the group who flamed bamboo. For a while, Thomas might have taken the wrong direction by staining the bamboo in the mahogany rods, if he was trying to emulate the Edwards color. And maybe there was more to the color than stain. Clearly, he (or his son) later flamed his rods, or at least some of them. I doubt that the tempering changed the color or darkness much, though that was done after the enamel was scraped off the flamed culm. Besides flaming and tempering, there was another treatment by Payne that some of us might know about. Last Edited By: Al Nixon 05/16/2008 20:03. Edited 1 time.
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Housatonic Quill		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 571 05/17/2008 12:24	Al Nixon said: Besides flaming and tempering, there was another treatment by Payne that some of us might know about. And that would be ... The more I think I know, the less I know I know.
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oneculm		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 425 05/17/2008 20:43	Anyone have any idea what oven times and temperature's Payne might have used? And the other treatment would be?
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czkid		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3442 05/17/2008 21:13 Moderator	Talk to Mike Brooks... he figured out to exactly reproduce the Payne coloration... gave a presentation on the subject at SRG a few years back. Ralph
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fishbates		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 105 05/17/2008 22:48	Payne rods from earlier years were generally softer slower actions, the orange color comes from the aging process of the varnish, its doubtful he used colored varnish, quality was always top notch, his 60's rods were generally not as dark as his 50s rods, also tapers changed a bit over time particularly for the tips dave
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